All out playboat, butt bouncer style for small features.
All Around playboat (Pintail replacement) a la Turbo (shorter than pintail, longer than Fish).
Bigger Mad Boy (River running creeker)
Smaller Critical Mass
Ocean surfing boat.
Other suggestions?
Corran
What should the next DR boat be?
What should the next DR boat be?
by corran on Mon May 18, 2009 11:34 am
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Re: What should the next DR boat be?
by booferman on Mon May 18, 2009 11:45 am
You should make a boat that can be raced, like the dagger green or the LL Hungee. Make that shit faster though.
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Re: What should the next DR boat be?
by corran on Mon May 18, 2009 2:06 pm
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Re: What should the next DR boat be?
by jastharp on Mon May 18, 2009 5:08 pm
Huracan
It looked like a good idea.
Jason
It looked like a good idea.
Jason
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Re: What should the next DR boat be?
by Brasco on Tue May 19, 2009 1:32 am
I think you need to get sneaky, your River Running and Creeking line up is pretty well catered for as is your playboat line up. However your playboat line up seems to have an image problem. You have great boats - but they are hard to paddle, hard to roll, hard to do tricks in and only carve. That is what I keep hearing, I am not hearing things like "the speed lets me catch waves and rip them to shreds when other boats can barely blunt" "after a while paddling the boat around becomes second nature and it has opened up a world of new possibilities to me" I'm not hearing the positive things.
So what I would propose is that the majority of peole out there prooclaim to want the performance but in reality don't. Have a look at how many people paddle Jacksons???? Serioulsy you could not have a more Blah boat than the allstar but people love it. Why? Becasue it is marketed as being cutting edge, fast, carvy, easy to roll but just as high performance as anything else.
What I see would be a great seller is something that is toned down a little, people say they want speed but they only want the impression of speed. To have real speed means they can't set up properly, the boat gets away on them and then they hate it. Give it a nice carving edge and a bit of speed and call it the fastest boat ever, if it feels fast no one will care. Make it short so people can't whinge about not being able to play in small holes, even though slightly longer would mean they could catch more waves. Design it so it looks like its easy to roll, but is comfortable. Remember the palcebo effect? Concentrate on release so that it is easy to go from edge to edge and do moves. Put the Golf Ball Dimples on the stern becasue it simply works, make it slightly bigger than normal so people are actualyl paddling the right size boat for them, not for the size they think they are etc etc.
Basically have a playboat that caters to what the market really wants, but doesn't want to ask for, and tell them its something else. Who would know????? At least then people may actually try one and then hopefully buy.
So what I would propose is that the majority of peole out there prooclaim to want the performance but in reality don't. Have a look at how many people paddle Jacksons???? Serioulsy you could not have a more Blah boat than the allstar but people love it. Why? Becasue it is marketed as being cutting edge, fast, carvy, easy to roll but just as high performance as anything else.
What I see would be a great seller is something that is toned down a little, people say they want speed but they only want the impression of speed. To have real speed means they can't set up properly, the boat gets away on them and then they hate it. Give it a nice carving edge and a bit of speed and call it the fastest boat ever, if it feels fast no one will care. Make it short so people can't whinge about not being able to play in small holes, even though slightly longer would mean they could catch more waves. Design it so it looks like its easy to roll, but is comfortable. Remember the palcebo effect? Concentrate on release so that it is easy to go from edge to edge and do moves. Put the Golf Ball Dimples on the stern becasue it simply works, make it slightly bigger than normal so people are actualyl paddling the right size boat for them, not for the size they think they are etc etc.
Basically have a playboat that caters to what the market really wants, but doesn't want to ask for, and tell them its something else. Who would know????? At least then people may actually try one and then hopefully buy.
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Re: What should the next DR boat be?
by corran on Tue May 19, 2009 1:24 pm
I agree with everything you said.
Except that we've tried it.
Example - Stinger. Easy as shit to madde. People still thing its hard to paddle. Disco at Riot - despite being stupid easy (compared to other boats ar the same time) riot STILL had the reputation of hard to paddle. What happes is people jsut assume that my boats are hard to paddle because I designed them. Pintail, Disco, Stinger, Air, Sniper, Dominatrix, Booster... all "easier to paddle" than the alternatives available at the time, and yet the reputation still remains. Riot (and now DR) = hard to paddle.
Lets look at it. Dominatrix. MUCH more forgiving than the XXX and more performing. Also against the Vengence. Disco. Much easier than the EGO (same year i think) and Mr Clean, and Forplay. Air - far more performing and far more fun and just as easy if not easier than the G force, Transformer. This is just plain old ease.
Now lets see what ease means? East to get onto the wave and do nothing? Midievel did this. You had to be a champion to flat spin it or do a blunt, but it flipped less. Glide - slightly more likely to flip on eddy lines, but any idiot could spin and blunt it. Yet the glide was considered hard and the Midevil easy. Easy to do nothing maybe, but it took real skill to actually paddle the midievil. So define easy? Is easy a boat that makes it easy to do things, or is just easy to not flip on eddy lines? If its the former, my boats are the easiest in the world. If its the latter, than there are 3 or 4 that are not easy out of the 20+ I've done. The rest conform to easy in the first definition.
Its bull. In reality the "hard to paddle" boats I did you can count on one hand - Glide, Tekno, Squashtail. Then the ones you could argue are hard, Fish, Mafia, Hammer. But this is relative. Now take the Space Cadet. Only boat I've nearly swum out of cos its so hard to roll. Does it have this reputation? No. LL can do no wrong. Conversely, you have to be a super hero to do basic moves in boats like...Original All Stars, Rockesr and Heros. They sucked so bad only EJ could make them work. But still have reputations as easy even if I saw more people swim out of the Rocker and piton in the Hero than any other boat (except the Alien lol).
Basically, people get into an EJ or Dagger boat and ASSUME its gonna be easy no matter how hard it is, and they get into mine and ASSUME its going to be hard no matter how easy it is, and regardless of what the boat does and how it really handles, this assumption remains. Rarely do people assess the boat for what it actually does, but rather for what they assume it'll do before trying it.
So would a "really easy boat that gives up performance by Dragorossi" sell? I doubt it. The people who like the performance won't like it and everyone else will just assume (incorrectly) that its still hard to paddle even if its the easiest boat in the world.
That's my take on it based on... um... 15 years experience with this reputation.
Corran
Except that we've tried it.
Example - Stinger. Easy as shit to madde. People still thing its hard to paddle. Disco at Riot - despite being stupid easy (compared to other boats ar the same time) riot STILL had the reputation of hard to paddle. What happes is people jsut assume that my boats are hard to paddle because I designed them. Pintail, Disco, Stinger, Air, Sniper, Dominatrix, Booster... all "easier to paddle" than the alternatives available at the time, and yet the reputation still remains. Riot (and now DR) = hard to paddle.
Lets look at it. Dominatrix. MUCH more forgiving than the XXX and more performing. Also against the Vengence. Disco. Much easier than the EGO (same year i think) and Mr Clean, and Forplay. Air - far more performing and far more fun and just as easy if not easier than the G force, Transformer. This is just plain old ease.
Now lets see what ease means? East to get onto the wave and do nothing? Midievel did this. You had to be a champion to flat spin it or do a blunt, but it flipped less. Glide - slightly more likely to flip on eddy lines, but any idiot could spin and blunt it. Yet the glide was considered hard and the Midevil easy. Easy to do nothing maybe, but it took real skill to actually paddle the midievil. So define easy? Is easy a boat that makes it easy to do things, or is just easy to not flip on eddy lines? If its the former, my boats are the easiest in the world. If its the latter, than there are 3 or 4 that are not easy out of the 20+ I've done. The rest conform to easy in the first definition.
Its bull. In reality the "hard to paddle" boats I did you can count on one hand - Glide, Tekno, Squashtail. Then the ones you could argue are hard, Fish, Mafia, Hammer. But this is relative. Now take the Space Cadet. Only boat I've nearly swum out of cos its so hard to roll. Does it have this reputation? No. LL can do no wrong. Conversely, you have to be a super hero to do basic moves in boats like...Original All Stars, Rockesr and Heros. They sucked so bad only EJ could make them work. But still have reputations as easy even if I saw more people swim out of the Rocker and piton in the Hero than any other boat (except the Alien lol).
Basically, people get into an EJ or Dagger boat and ASSUME its gonna be easy no matter how hard it is, and they get into mine and ASSUME its going to be hard no matter how easy it is, and regardless of what the boat does and how it really handles, this assumption remains. Rarely do people assess the boat for what it actually does, but rather for what they assume it'll do before trying it.
So would a "really easy boat that gives up performance by Dragorossi" sell? I doubt it. The people who like the performance won't like it and everyone else will just assume (incorrectly) that its still hard to paddle even if its the easiest boat in the world.
That's my take on it based on... um... 15 years experience with this reputation.
Corran
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Re: What should the next DR boat be?
by axr6 on Tue May 19, 2009 2:58 pm
Corran
You know that I love you Man but, I have to tell you; you are one hard headed dude!!! You really do not want to hear what you do not want to hear.
People do think that the DR playboats are too hard to handle. In my area they developed a reputation after some of my pretty decent playboating friends had swam out of one. They are a BITCH to roll!!!
People get into the Fish and after a few aborted rides in a tougher feature they return the boat shaking... they are intimidated and can't believe that I CAN make it work. Yes, the boat is not as tippy as they initially perceive BUT, the initial perception is what counts a great deal.
No, I do not consider the Stinger an easy, nor to be a particularly enjoyable boat. For my weight it has too small stern volume and too much stern rocker. I have to be bending over the bow with the seat way forward to avoid tailstanding in class III rapids. Due to the high tail rocker it does not surf well for me, except on the steepest features. The Stinger is my least favorite of all DR boats.
The Pintail also has too much tail rocker for my taste. Not enough support from the stern. I had repeatedly shown that I can catch and stay on a wave better in my Mafia than in my Pintail. I fall of of waves in my Pintail that I can stay on with my Mafia. I believe that it all have to do with the narrow and highly rockered tail. A boat of that length and shape SHOULD shine on slower, smaller features that intermediates tend to play on and it DOES NOT DO THAT. It works great on super steep features where the stern support is not so important (First Threat).
Fish, Thruster, Squash - hard as hell to roll. As far as I'm concerned that is no other butt bouncer that surfs like the Fish but, the roll is way too intimidating.
An easy boat is like the Allstar. It does not surf anywhere close to the Fish but, stable, spins well and inspires confidence in people. Also, easy to roll. That is why you see tons of them on the river and you do not see hardly any DR playboats. The same people who rejected that initial, first series of Jackson playboat line-up have now changed their minds and all buying the Star series. So, there is proof that reputation can be changed with new products.
I know you enough by now to recognize your tendency to be pretty hard headed regarding your preferences. You told me before that you do not like to make performance compromises, not even for commercial success vs. your ideals. Well, it comes down to that point: if you want boats that commercially successful you have to build a design that may appear as a great compromise for your performance-oriented thinking. If you continue building the type of playboats that only selected skill levels can and be willing to use than it is almost guaranteed that you won't sell many of them.
I've seen you ask this same question before regarding what future boat to build. Then, given your hard skull, you find a reason to reject most recommendations that would suggest a different approach and go on justifying your preferences. I am pointing this out as a form of constructive criticism, trying to make you hear and listen better to the people you're asking.
Well, you're still my favorite builder/designer but, open those EARS!!!
Albert
You know that I love you Man but, I have to tell you; you are one hard headed dude!!! You really do not want to hear what you do not want to hear.
People do think that the DR playboats are too hard to handle. In my area they developed a reputation after some of my pretty decent playboating friends had swam out of one. They are a BITCH to roll!!!
People get into the Fish and after a few aborted rides in a tougher feature they return the boat shaking... they are intimidated and can't believe that I CAN make it work. Yes, the boat is not as tippy as they initially perceive BUT, the initial perception is what counts a great deal.
No, I do not consider the Stinger an easy, nor to be a particularly enjoyable boat. For my weight it has too small stern volume and too much stern rocker. I have to be bending over the bow with the seat way forward to avoid tailstanding in class III rapids. Due to the high tail rocker it does not surf well for me, except on the steepest features. The Stinger is my least favorite of all DR boats.
The Pintail also has too much tail rocker for my taste. Not enough support from the stern. I had repeatedly shown that I can catch and stay on a wave better in my Mafia than in my Pintail. I fall of of waves in my Pintail that I can stay on with my Mafia. I believe that it all have to do with the narrow and highly rockered tail. A boat of that length and shape SHOULD shine on slower, smaller features that intermediates tend to play on and it DOES NOT DO THAT. It works great on super steep features where the stern support is not so important (First Threat).
Fish, Thruster, Squash - hard as hell to roll. As far as I'm concerned that is no other butt bouncer that surfs like the Fish but, the roll is way too intimidating.
An easy boat is like the Allstar. It does not surf anywhere close to the Fish but, stable, spins well and inspires confidence in people. Also, easy to roll. That is why you see tons of them on the river and you do not see hardly any DR playboats. The same people who rejected that initial, first series of Jackson playboat line-up have now changed their minds and all buying the Star series. So, there is proof that reputation can be changed with new products.
I know you enough by now to recognize your tendency to be pretty hard headed regarding your preferences. You told me before that you do not like to make performance compromises, not even for commercial success vs. your ideals. Well, it comes down to that point: if you want boats that commercially successful you have to build a design that may appear as a great compromise for your performance-oriented thinking. If you continue building the type of playboats that only selected skill levels can and be willing to use than it is almost guaranteed that you won't sell many of them.
I've seen you ask this same question before regarding what future boat to build. Then, given your hard skull, you find a reason to reject most recommendations that would suggest a different approach and go on justifying your preferences. I am pointing this out as a form of constructive criticism, trying to make you hear and listen better to the people you're asking.
Well, you're still my favorite builder/designer but, open those EARS!!!
Albert
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Re: What should the next DR boat be?
by design71 on Tue May 19, 2009 3:09 pm
I paddle a stinger, it's actually the pink one that Corran had pictures of on his old blog. I have to say that it is a very easy boat to paddle, it is only slightly harder to cartwheel than an allstar, yet you really have to want the stinger to flip to flip. I've taken it down the lower Doe at over a thousand and had zero problems. Thing is, I nearly passed on this boat because of a review of it online from Canoe and Kayak magazine. They said it had no initial or secondary stability and wondered if they would make the takeout! That kind of review is bound to scare people off. Luckily for me, I stumbled on a review on the UK site Unsponsored and they gave it a completely different character. So I have been trying to do my part to educate my paddling buddies about how great the stinger is but they won't even try it! They see the thigh wings and get scared. It's totally ridiculous! I don't know maybe they won't try it because it's pink!
My point is, maybe instead of a totally new boat maybe a new image? Maybe Corran could change his name or something?
BTW, I am 165 lbs. and 5'10"
My point is, maybe instead of a totally new boat maybe a new image? Maybe Corran could change his name or something?
BTW, I am 165 lbs. and 5'10"
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Re: What should the next DR boat be?
by axr6 on Tue May 19, 2009 3:43 pm
Interesting how personal preferences play out.
Now that you mentioned I also have had issues with the primary stability of the Stinger. As soon as I got into it I had a REAL tippy feel that never really went away. I found it just about scary when running a longer, steeper class III rapid for both the lack of perceived side-to-side stability and for its tendency to stand on its tail.
BTW - I am 6', 190 lbs.
Albert
Now that you mentioned I also have had issues with the primary stability of the Stinger. As soon as I got into it I had a REAL tippy feel that never really went away. I found it just about scary when running a longer, steeper class III rapid for both the lack of perceived side-to-side stability and for its tendency to stand on its tail.
BTW - I am 6', 190 lbs.
Albert
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Re: What should the next DR boat be?
by TonyZ on Tue May 19, 2009 4:26 pm
As Corran has mentioned over the several years, there are 80+ models of the simmilar easier paddling boats, with simmilar performance and tons of them are great designs for what folks want to do. What truely draws me to DR are the harder edges and fastest hulls. The market for that style is small, but someone needs to fill it, and DR is doing that very well and should stick to it.
IMO it has been some time sense DR has come out with a playboat and I would LOVE to see a new one. A super loose butt bouncing carver with killer end ballance, you know everything........ ie. smaller Thruster for us lil kids. I have been using the Thruster at my size - 5'9 160, and without the rise of a Race Seat, she is too wide and deep for me on the features we have in the NW and I only take it out on a couple of waves. Skook, well you can air just about anything at Skook, but I want a poppy blunt machine for smaller features, without giving up the CARVE!
As I tell anyone who demo my DR's, you are not going to unlock its majisty in a 5 ride surf session, because you are trying to innitiat everything the same way you do in your personal boat. It takes a good couple of surf sessions to figure her out, but once you do, hang on big daddy! Rely on those rails and stop driving your Testarossa like an Escort. I am an average playboater, but damn I have FUN! And DR gives me the most FUN, and ultimitly thats what its about!
IMO it has been some time sense DR has come out with a playboat and I would LOVE to see a new one. A super loose butt bouncing carver with killer end ballance, you know everything........ ie. smaller Thruster for us lil kids. I have been using the Thruster at my size - 5'9 160, and without the rise of a Race Seat, she is too wide and deep for me on the features we have in the NW and I only take it out on a couple of waves. Skook, well you can air just about anything at Skook, but I want a poppy blunt machine for smaller features, without giving up the CARVE!
As I tell anyone who demo my DR's, you are not going to unlock its majisty in a 5 ride surf session, because you are trying to innitiat everything the same way you do in your personal boat. It takes a good couple of surf sessions to figure her out, but once you do, hang on big daddy! Rely on those rails and stop driving your Testarossa like an Escort. I am an average playboater, but damn I have FUN! And DR gives me the most FUN, and ultimitly thats what its about!
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